Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:05 Hello, and welcome to today's episode of Accessibility and Me. I'm Anica Zeyen from Royal Holloway University of London, and I co-host this podcast with Oana Branzeifrom Ivey Business School in Canada, and Luke Coughlin, also from Royal Holloway.
Speaker 2 00:00:21 Our guest today is Jackie Nicholson, co-chair of NADSN, the National Association of Disabled Staff Networks.
Speaker 3 00:00:30 Welcome to our podcast, Jacquie.
Speaker 4 00:00:32 Thank you, Anica.
Speaker 3 00:00:34 It is so lovely to have you today. Could you tell our listeners a bit more about what NAS is, how it came about, what it does?
Speaker 4 00:00:43 So NAS Kin is a, a network that connects and we represent disabled staff networks, um, mainly in higher education universities, but in other settings as well. We have members from the NHS and from from other workplaces across the uk. So we, we collective platform really, and we try to, um, share experiences, some good practices, but we are also examining the challenges and opportunities that disabled people are facing at work. Um, we're, we're open really to any individuals that want to join us who are chairing or trying to set up a disabled staff network. And we're very keen to encourage and support people as they're setting up themselves and beginning and, and if anybody wants to chat to us, they have had their own ideas, but perhaps haven't got started yet. We're always open to, to supporting people and, and shading our experience with them. Um, so Nason has been going now for over six years and really emerged from a piece of work that was done by Dr.
Speaker 4 00:01:48 Hammid tur, um, from the University of Manchester who's currently, um, the, the chair. Um, Hammid recognized that there wasn't a network pulling together disabled staff networks and hug really initiated the start of Nason. I joined quite soon after that, um, after setting up the disabled staff network at the University of Edinburgh and chaired that for a number of years. And it was through my experience and setting that up and, and chairing it, and I guess the positives and negatives and stresses and strains of that experience that really linked me in with Nason and Hammid and the other people who are involved in setting it up, the dating group. Um, so we work closely together in our own areas in terms of our networks, but also together in really building nason as a, we're all volunteers. So, um, we've been doing this along with our jobs, uh, which terms of time can be challenging sometimes, but the sheer enthusiasm and genuine support and mutual, um, support for each other that we all have, I think has been absolutely priceless.
Speaker 4 00:02:55 And that's one, I think of the key strengths of Nason is that we are disabled people working together to support each other. Um, and, and I think for me, that's been so important in terms of the disabled staff network, but also in terms of me as a disabled person in my own work and in, in understanding that I'm not alone. That there are other disabled people experiencing similar things in the workplace. And actually when those themes become clear, there's, we can together, we can work, um, towards, towards addressing them. I don't want it to sound too much like we're always addressing issues because that's not the case. It's something as well about us being creative with that too. Um, it's about getting together, sharing experiences, supporting each other and, and working together to make the workplaces better, to make things better for disabled people. So I think that's really for me, what Anson's been about.
Speaker 3 00:03:51 Thank you. And could you tell us a bit more about what you specifically do Fordson?
Speaker 4 00:03:57 So I've been vice chair for Nason now for a number of years. Um, my role has been to support Hamed as a chair, um, and to work with a steering group around some of the, the pieces of work that we have carried out. Um, it's been before Covid we were involved in the annual conferences, so in planning the conferences, finding speakers, um, organizing the event, um, also around the day-to-day work with Nason as well. So what we've got to our, um, online networks that we keep going, got her website that we set up, um, sharing information between each other. And so part of my role has been in, in really helping with steering those matters too, with the steering group. There's been specific pieces of work responding to, um, consultations sort of at government level or, um, other pieces of work that we as a group have decided it's important for an to take part in.
Speaker 4 00:04:58 So that can mean sometimes writing a paper, going back to NADS and community with questions and, and issues to see what people think about those things so that we can really pull that information together and share it in consultations or if we are actually campaigning for issues ourselves. Also over code, we set up the sort of catch ups, which is a online forum and opportunity for s members to get together very informally, um, to talk about how things are. So I'll facilitate that and co-facilitate that with hamit. So that's again about supporting each other. So I guess one of the key things I, ke role I think I have within the vice chair is, is supporting Nason itself, um, but also supporting as I, as best I can, the people that are, um, part of Nason. And from that I get support as well. So, you know, we're all working together.
Speaker 4 00:05:54 I think as well from, from Nadine's point of of view. Um, another part of my role has been as we've moved forward over the years, we are now on the brink of becoming more formalized as an organization, as a, as a group. And that's taken a bit of work around pulling the things together for that too. So I've been, um, involved in that and so leading a bit of work on that. So those are sort of the, the key areas that I've been working on. I mean, there's, there's lots of resources on the NA website that we've created. Um, but we, we, we recognize that we are creating those, um, on behalf of the members of na. So they're all co-created together. Um, so, so rather than us having sort individualized pieces of work that we'd say, I did this or, or somebody else did that, we always recognize it's Nason.
Speaker 4 00:06:43 Um, so we pull it together in that way. So yeah, that's part of, um, I think working with the Jane Group, that's part of the identity at Nadine's Hat, um, as we've developed is that we're very clear that we are, um, very much about helping disabled staff, disabled staff networks to have a voice and, um, to ensure that anything that we do is led by them. Um, so there's that balance always as well, isn't there, between being, being imaginative, being keen to do pieces of work, but also not going faster than the people that we're working with. So actually being led by them, I think everything that we do, we want to come from that and members, and, and sometimes that's, that takes a bit of time to wait to see what people do think about something, um, rather than jumping in. Whereas there can be pressure sometimes for us to respond to things in quite a sort of, in a way that's sort of bigger organizations that maybe have teams that are involved in that do, and and that's not how we work. We're very much led by the people that we, um, we support. And so that can take us a bit longer. So yeah, I think holding on to the strengths of Mads is part of what I do as well, just part of what we all do in steering group, but it, it's really important because it's, it's who we are as a group.
Speaker 3 00:08:00 The last two years have led to lots and lots of changes that all of us have gone through. In your role as Vice chair of Nason, what were some of the challenges you, you witnessed that all the different disabled members of the network have encountered?
Speaker 4 00:08:18 So I think thinking back to the beginning, initially, um, I think it was horror actually. Uh, the way that disabled people suddenly it felt like rights had taken years to establish where you wrote it almost overnight and disabled people's decision making, um, seemed to be taken away from them and was being made by politicians, but also by others with no consultation with disabled people. So it really felt like there was a, a very fast process of change taking place. It was a bit like a whirlwind. And the implications for the people that we work with, the practical implication for people in terms of their day-to-day support at work and at home were really seriously impacted initially by Covid. So really supporting each other, um, listening to each other, um, hearing people's experiences, hearing what is important, what was actually happening for them. And then for us trying to find roots to raise, um, the issues as, as they were happening in the real world for people in the workplace.
Speaker 4 00:09:28 But also as the workplace became home and home became the workplace, those boundaries really started to blur and also very positive for a lot of disabled people being able to work from home. Other challenges as well, like equipment, having equipment at work and not having it at home and trying to ensure that in the, the, the new idea of what a workplace was, um, was recognized as a workplace officially, and that equipment that really, um, in a practical sense made work possible for people, was available to them wherever they were working from. And also recognizing that those, those changes that were taking place for some people, the isolation of working from home was not a positive experience. So there wasn't a positive or negative to that. There was a mixture of experiences based on the, um, the differences between the people that are involved in and the uniqueness of everybody.
Speaker 4 00:10:23 Um, so trying to capture that was a really important as well. Over the past two years, I think that we have, we did our position statements at the outset where we really tried to capture that initially and, and publicize that new and far. And then from there we've tried to stay very much in touch with what, what people's lives have been like and really trying to support them with the changes that are taking place, trying to share between ourselves, between each other, what's been helpful for some people, what's been unhelpful, um, strategies and approaches that have have worked. So there's not, um, one thing that I would say that we've done, I think it's, it's lots of things. Mainly it's been around communication and really encouraging communication through, um, our networks so that people can share things that have, have been helpful to them. Um, so yeah, I think that's been what's been really important over the past two years for, for some NAS and members.
Speaker 4 00:11:20 Um, the working from home experience has just brought lots of new positive possibilities to their lives and they'd like to hold onto that. And as things change, and again, we're going through another process of change now and some pressures on eh, workers generally to return to the workplace and trying to help people to feel they can negotiate their needs, um, for work, uh, with their employers in whatever settings they're in. Nason really wants to, um, I guess hold that that, so we don't want to lose the positives that people have experienced, but equally, we don't want stereotypes to take over where people think that working from home is great for everybody because we know that for some people, um, in AD and it's not been, it's been awful and they have had families at home, young families, um, there may be positives in being able to be home.
Speaker 4 00:12:15 There may be negatives and not being able to, to work as they want to. So this is tensions going on all the time for everyone, and we've tried to capture those a and not get pigeonholed into boxes of, well, this is really good or this is really bad. But very much keeps that dialogue of there's lots of grace in between <laugh> and keep, you know, keep pushing that we're individuals. We're not, uh, we're not one, um, homogenous group of disabled people. We're all in individuals and we all have individual needs in relation to, to work and trying to keep that uppermost.
Speaker 3 00:12:49 Are there any specific experiences that you've heard others talk about that really stood out for you? Positive, negative, somewhere in between, but are there certain things that really stood out for you in the last two years that you still remember, even though they might have been told to you quite a while ago?
Speaker 4 00:13:11 I think probably at the, the early months, um, and, and over maybe the first year of the pandemic, one of the things that stood out to me was, uh, the compassion people had for each other, workplaces really, um, sharing a compassionate approach with everybody they were working with, but particularly from, from our experience, um, disabled staff and what difference that made, uh, people felt listened to and felt heard, and lots of really good experiences of workplaces where managers who perhaps had not considered circumstances, perhaps because the workplace was set up, had to revisit that because of the changes and how, how that could be a positive experience for people, how that could be, it could bring as well as a great deal of distress and a great deal of difficulty for a lot of people. It could also bring a great deal of compassion and a great deal of sharing and understanding as well.
Speaker 4 00:14:15 So I think for me, that's probably one of the, the first sort of powerful feelings I had in ex in people's experiences along with that, you know, some really difficult experiences for people where their personal care, um, was reduced or in some cases, you know, due to illness perhaps stopped and the impact of that on their lives and how, how isolating that is, but also just how powerless you can feel in that as well. And there was a real sense, I think for me too personally in powerlessness in parts sessions of the, the pandemic where disabled people's voices, we seem to be being stereotyped again or ignored or policy decisions were being made and all these things that we are aware in the workplace, equality audits, you know, quality impacts and all the things that we know from a policy perspective take place and just feeling well, are these happening?
Speaker 4 00:15:15 Who's, who's really considering, uh, disabled people in this? And so that, that was the experiences that, that were coming up, um, from the network and, and we tried to capture those and, and tried to, to really bring those to different forums as well. And I, I think that's, I'm it's probably going to take an awful lot longer after these events. I think they're still very close. Um, things going to take an awful, not an awful lot longer to reflect on them and really to process everything that happened, but these are the things that sort of jumped to mind at this stage.
Speaker 3 00:15:49 You've already mentioned a couple of positive outcomes of the pandemic for, for some of, uh, for some disabled workers employees in terms of flexibility and certain accommodations. Could you talk a bit more about that? What were some good changes that we might like to keep for the disability community going forward?
Speaker 4 00:16:14 Reasonable adjustments as a, as a general concept and idea, we seem to move away for a while there from the rigidity of systems that, you know, you have to go through so many steps to, um, to get reasonable adjustments. We seem to go into much more fluid, uh, relationship for a lot of people at work where there was just much more flexibility and a much easier access to the adjustments that they needed. And that's whether it was equipment or whatever the adjustments were. And I think in part that was because workplaces were really receptive to making those changes and I wouldn't like to lose that. I think that it would be a negative to see more barriers and systems we put in place. Again, there's something very positive toward, it's working towards a much more inclusive working environment where in we remove those barriers and actually reasonable adjustments just become something that is the norm, that if people need them, they get them and we don't have to go through, well, you're disabled, what kind of, you know, and, and all these ideas of you've got to have this assessment, you've got to have that assessment.
Speaker 4 00:17:24 Someone's got to say you need that before you can get that making it easy. Um, I think some of the government departments as well had to make some changes to their working practices online. Some of that was a bit clunky and took a bit of time, but I think when it came together that worked effectively as well. So yeah, I think that there has been people getting together to make things work really effectively, listening to what disabled people said they needed and helping them to put it in place and removing that bureaucracy that so often gets in the way of slowing things down. Um, for some people, and not saying for everybody, but for some people that process does seem to have been very positive and it's something we don't want to really lose by going steps back to a situation where we need to have all these steps in place again.
Speaker 4 00:18:14 Um, which I think tends to work from some idea that disabled people are somehow going to be asking for things they don't need, which is just ridiculous. I mean, they just need what they do want to do job. So that flipping of that idea that we have to put things in place to make sure people only get what they need to, rather, let's just make this work for everybody and let's not assume that people are going to ask for things they don't need. There's only gonna ask for things they do need, so let's make it nice and easy. Yeah, so I guess that's probably, um, it's at a should no, but it's also, um, practical in terms of systems. So for me these are things I'd lovely like to hold onto that I think are positives that could make big changes. It's not a specific mechanism saying that for one person this works well. It's about trying to hang on to something that actually makes things work better for lots of people. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:19:06 In your role as wise chair of this large organization that has members of all kinds of different disabled staff networks, do you think the role of disabled staff networks has changed because of the pandemic?
Speaker 4 00:19:20 That's an interesting question. No, I think fundamentally the role of disabled work, disabled staff networks remains the same. I think it's about helping to disabled staff to, um, collectively and support each other and provide mutual support and that, that I think we're holding onto, we're just defining different forums for that to happen. And then it's also about the, the policy side of bringing disabled staff's experience along with other staff networks, pulling together, sharing experiences, identifying themes, and really working with workplaces, uh, towards making them more inclusive and more accessible. Um, so no, I don't think that the role of staff networks has changed over the pandemic. I think perhaps, um, aspects of what we do have been highlighted, but I think the role remains very much the same
Speaker 3 00:20:20 I'm going in forward into, into the future. Now that we're talking about coming out of the pandemic and, and all of those issues, what do you think might be the biggest challenges and opportunities for disabled staff networks coming out of this pandemic?
Speaker 4 00:20:41 One of the biggest challenges is that things just revert to pre pandemic. And it's just thought, okay, we'll just go right back. Now. I guess that's one of the biggest challenges is that none of the positives are kept and that there's a sense of loss, again for disabled people. Um, I think there is real genuine concerns from some, some disabled people that they're not really being considered. And this, you know, for some, for some people they may end up being expected to work from home. They may have health reasons why that has been necessary, but may not want to work from home ply. And so there's a bit of a risk of isolation and exclusion in a different way that if there are health risks relating to going to work, if there are no, if there are no practical, um, protections in place, then how does somebody balance their own health needs along with managing the risk.
Speaker 4 00:21:51 So yeah, I think there's, there's some issues around that. Um, I, yeah, I, I, yeah, I think that's, want to hold onto the positives, but going forward, I think it's a bit of an unknown at the moment. There were still, um, a bit concerned, you know, covid is still very much a real threat to just some of our members and that can't be ignored. And I think that's very important for us in to ensure that it's not forgotten and that we're not going to fall into a new set of stereotypes based on the experience of Covid where it's assumed that disabled people just want to work from home or it's assumed that other, you know, aspects of, of the workplace. I don't, I don't think that's generally been our experience actually. I think from, from what we hear from people, it, the positives appear to be, um, there's a lot more working together moving forward, which is, is is really good to hear. But yeah, it's a bit uncertain at the moment. I think that's probably why I'm struggling a bit to really, um, pull together my thoughts on this really coherently because I think it's actually quite uncertain and I haven't really got a, a strong sense really yet of what it means to people and perhaps we're all just waiting to see a bit. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:23:18 And could you just very briefly tell us a bit about how you at your work were impacted by Covid and the pandemic?
Speaker 4 00:23:29 So I've worked mostly from home, um, since the pandemic. So for me though, I've changed roles over the period of the pandemic as well. So I've sort of left one role and become, I was working at the University of Aberdeen, so I left that role and I've started work at the Open University, which is an online platform anyway. So there's, my life has changed in the way that I work, um, in that most of my work now is done online, but I am very much looking forward to some of the face-to-face work starting again as well. Cause I've been brilliant. I really enjoy face-to-face work too. So yeah, I feel like there's been a, um, for me, uh, quite a few changes that have taken place over, over the past couple of years and, and quite positive ones. Um, for me, I've enjoyed over the past few months have things have opened up and I've been able to touch a quite, make you for coffee or egg out for dinner and do the things that feel so normal and, you know, being able to meet colleagues and go out for coffee as well is just something for such a long time we couldn't do.
Speaker 4 00:24:34 So it's small things. I'm happy with <laugh>. It's not the big things, the small ones. <laugh>.
Speaker 3 00:24:40 That is great. Is there anything else you'd like to add?
Speaker 4 00:24:44 I think for, um, you know, looking forward, I think probably one of the things that we would like to, um, get up and going again in our conferences because we, we haven't been able to do that. Uh, so I guess 2023, hopefully we'll be looking at having a conference, um, next year and hopefully we'll have face-to-face, which would be great. And I think then we'll be able to, um, we'll be in a better position to reflect on the past few years then when we've got a bit of distance from it.
Speaker 3 00:25:18 Thank you very much. This was today's episode with Jackie Nickon Weiss, chair of Nason. My name is Anika. Thanks for listening everyone.
Speaker 1 00:25:33 Thank you very much for listening to today's episode of Accessibility in Me. We hope you enjoyed it and we'll tune in to our next episode. We would like to thank the British Academy for funding today's episode.
